Are Your Frugal Ways Hurting Us All?

i understand your arguments, but i see this as the "buy american or the terrorists win" type stuff.

i refuse to pay more for a car because it was union made in the usa, to my own detriment. I will not be without something so that a line assembler can make $45 an hour. that is not capitalism.

I have a slightly different pang of guilt when it comes to giving my things on freecycle. By me giving my things away, I am not allowing myself to be a pack rat. However, I can't help but wonder each time if I'm just helping someone else perpetuate their need to collect things.

I was pretty shocked by number 1. My wife works as Target and loves it there, however, Target is just as anti-union as Walmart. All that bad press that Wal-Mart gets can really be applied to all big box retailers, and if you look at Target they aren't much better that Walmart over all. Please read over this for more information:
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=13508

I've decided to try, whenever possible, to buy meat that has been raised locally, humanely and sustainably. This usually means that I'm paying between 4 and 8 dollars a pound, even for hamburger. So, I just buy less of it, filling in the calories with veggies. I'm eating healthier, treading more lightly on the earth, condemning fewer animals to short, miserable lives, and encouraging the farmers to keep up the good work. And I'm not really spending any more money, just spending it differently.

And, yes, it still hurts a little to walk past the $1 hamburger and $1.98 ribs in the supermarket. But in the long run, it feels good.

I understand and agree with some of the listed questions, however I think that being "too" frugal is a very minor issue in the US's economy issues. I think in fairness that if the heads of state and corporate leaders want people to spend more, then I feel inclined to ask them to maybe spend less.

Carrie--
I really appreciated both the thoughtfulness and the beautiful honesty of this post, for it's not often that people a) examine the impact of their habits on others and b) admit that they are lacking in some areas.

I had a serious moral awakening when I started drinking coffee in college. I walked into Wal-Mart (oh, the shame!) and noticed that those nice large cans of coffee were only $4 apiece. There must have been hundreds of them. Then I thought about all the Wal-Marts and all the other supermarkets and the sheer volume of coffee being produced, and it dawned on me: there's a lot of brown hands working very hard every day for next to nothing so that I can have my $4 can of Folgers.

What pained me even worse was that I knew if I paid the people the fair cost for their labor, I would not be able to afford coffee. But by drinking the coffee I could afford, I enabled this unjust system to remain in place. In fact, I encouraged the system to remain in place.

I then generalized from there and felt overwhelmed. At the end of the day, I still drank coffee and buy other similarly procured items. I don't know if it's better to do this while knowing the cost on others or whether it was better, morally speaking, when I didn't know the cost.

Keep up the good work and let us know if you reconcile the dilemmas.

I also think it's too cheap not to buy at least some books and magazines. Cutting back on subscriptions and trips to bookstores is one of those things that frugality websites are recommending. But how are publishers going to publish books if nobody will pay for them? Ditto for plays and movies. If you admire a director or an actor, or you want to have the arts alive in your area, invest some money in the arts.

I've learned to avoid paying full price for clothing. I used to justify paying full price on the grounds that my size (mens XL) was usually gone if I didn't jump on something I liked, however I shrank to a mens L so now I can wait for an item to go on sale.

Be careful when buying the cheapest available item. Certain items can be treated as commodities, while other items might be worth a premium. I'd rather have a $100 coffeemaker that will last half a lifetime than a $20 one that I'll trash in a couple of years.

Green buying is all about buying local, not whether a given product is organic. It does the planet no good if Wal-Mart offers organic lettuce grown in California on shelves in Wisconsin since such a process still uses vast fossil fuel resources to move the product to a store shelf. If you care about the planet, buy locally grown produce at a farmer's market. I always get a chuckle at the Whole Foods customers who arrive in a Land Rover and hold up organically grown blueberries flown in from Chile in the dead of winter and think they're doing their bodies and the planet something good.

just today i passed a store selling 59-cent/pound chicken quarters

Have you really tried to give a significant amount of stuff to Goodwill or the Salvation Army lately?

They are VERY picky. Our SA will not take: books, toys with "use" showing, chairs or furniture with any wear or the bottom dust protector off, etc.

And then there are items they historically don't consider- like plants, food, etc.

FreeCycle in my area is very active and saves tons of stuff from landfill. Charities don't want a lot of the stuff that seems to go around.

I found this post insiteful.
1. I hate Wal-mart too and have begun trying to shop for most things at grocery stores and using coupons and then buying everything else at more specialized stores.
2. I also agree about waiting until it is on sale. I think there is a difference between buying something at a store wide sale and on clearence. And still every once in a while I will shell out more for organic, made in the use, etc. or something else I think is worth paying for.
4. My local GW warehouse is overflowing with stuff that will rot before it hits shelves. I have taken good quality clothes there to see them heaped in a pile with things that smell like smoke and mildew. At least with freecycle, I know they will be used for a time and keep someone from buying new and sending mine to a landfill. I also sell nicer used clothing on consignment or find a source where it can be distributed immediately. My local career center takes business clothes to outfit their client base with appropriate clothes for interviews.

I feel like I am saving money in other places to buy local, handmade and things that are important to me.

I stopped freecycling because almost all of the people who came for my stuff were just planning to resell it. Or, people offer to take away everything in order to get the one thing they really wanted (and presumably throwing the rest away). That's not in the spirit of freecycle.

Only the rich - or naive - can NOT buy at the cheapest/or most frugal price, ethics notwithstanding.

Freecycling is amazing... and a testiment to the fact that one person's trash is another person's treasure. I once had a box of Ebay-purchased dishes arrive broken (poorly packed by vendor).... once he and I had worked out reimbursement details, I offered the shards up on Freecycle. I had over a dozen people contact me. Apparently, there are a lot of mosaic crafters/artists around here, and they use broken china for tesserae. I personally don't care if they sell their crafts afterward: my goal is to get the stuff out of my space and not into landfill... if people inject some value add into the items (fix them up, remodel them, make quilts out of them, craft them), so much the better!

When trying to get rid of accumulated "stuff":

Talk to your local womens'/mens shelters... they are often looking for clothing, soaps/shampoos, unused personal items.

Church organizations: often looking for items to help people set up apartments

Some of our local sports stores collect used running shoes for redistribution in wartorn Africa.

If you are trying to shed or acquire books, check out Bookcrossing.org.

Compost!

There are lots of alternatives to sending your cast offs to landfill... it just takes a bit more effort than depositing your stuff at the end of the laneway each week.

I live in what I feel is a quaint old-fashioned village, and it's important to me that the stores in the village survive. I can walk into town and buy a variety of things that are more expensive than if I bought them at Target or online. But I'm walking, and I'm supporting my neighbors, and I'm keeping up the property value of my home (quaint villages mean higher property value), and I'm not using gas/polluting, and I'm getting some free exercise.

It is, however, tough for me to spend $45 + tax on a book locally when I can get the same book minus tax and shipping for $30 from Amazon. It's not the bookseller's fault though. They're not marking anything up -- they're just trying to get by. Amazon buys in such bulk they can afford to make such huge discounts. I end up compromising -- I make sure to buy what I see as a fair number of my books from my local bookseller, and I order some online. (I actually get most of my books from the library -- we mostly just buy reference-type books or gifts.)

Anyway, it's far more important to me to support my local shops on every day than it is to support the Gap or Target or some other big box or chain store when they are selling an organic t-shirt. The same goes for food. I'd rather buy local meat and vegetables, organic or not, and support my local small farmers, than support huge organic factory farms that truck in the items.

BTW, I agree with the poster who points out that saving money in one place means investing it somewhere else. We've been frugal for years by necessity. The last year or so have been a little better for us financially, but we've continued to be frugal, and this January, we were able to buy our very first brand new car (talk about an ethical decision -- trying to figure out whether new was automatically worse for the environment, blah, blah, blah). So in the end we invested all that saved money in the automobile industry.

The thing is, you can pay a fortune for a shirt or whatever, and you may be paying for the marketing of that shirt, not the salary of the person who makes it. Every year, I challenge my students to find an article of clothing that is made in the United States, and usually, they can't do it. This year, one kid found a pair of socks. When we look at each others labels in class, we find that ALL of the clothes are made in countries where people are paid next to nothing to produce those clothes. So in the end, it may not really matter how much you pay for that shirt, or where you buy it. Perhaps it just boils down to which corporation you want to have your money.

I absolutely struggle with the need to keep my grocery bill as small as possible, and the fact that buying the cheapest food may not be the healthy choice.

I really WANT to buy fruits and vegetables that are free of pesticides and other scary stuff, but that 10 lb bag of potatoes at Winco for $1.98 just calls to me every time!

I also agree that the lack of frugality is what got our country into the economic mess that we're in (and will continue to BE in, if we just pull out the credit cards to 'help' the economy).

I want to do what's best for ME (i.e. live frugally, become financially secure), while balancing my need to also live lightly on the earth. That is probably my greatest challenge (other than passing up the 50% off signs in the shoe store window. . . .)

I know #6 was tongue-in-cheek, but a lot of people don't seem to realize that businesses pay a percentage of each sale to the credit card company.

That's why you see "no Credit Card purchases under $X" signs in a lot of small businesses.

If you want to support an independent business, consider paying in cash, that way they aren't paying the bank a fee for cashing your check, or the credit card company a percentage that could be profits.

My husband works three jobs. I ALSO work. Even so, we qualify for state health insurance. And still I wouldn't want to make a buying choice that hurts someone else.

Frugality isn't about being cheap, it's about making smart choices with possessions and money. Morally, ethically, spiritually, as well as financially, people have to live with their decisions. I want to teach my children about the value of people on this planet.

We don't need all this crap regardless of how cheap it is.

I think that consumer choices are greater now than ever before. Most communities have multiple places to shop for goo-gaws. Those goo-gaws come in many flavors, colors, styles by multiple name and no-name brands. It's easy to get overwhelmed and that's at the center of this post.

Everyone says buy locally. Where do you all live that you can grow veggies and such in the dead of winter? Last summer I went to a local fruit/veg stand and the canalope was from California! I have to admit that as much as I want to vote with my dollar and be green, it is frustrating to do the research on a product only to find out that it is just as bad in another way and shouldn't be supported. I think the reason that we haven't all gone green or shop only ethically is that there is just not enough time or energy to always do this, unless you live like the Amish.

Companies will maximize profit despite your best efforts to support workers. (See Prada selling $800 purses made by Chinese "Italian craftsman") Thus even socially conscious consumers will be exploited. It might cost 10% more to produce cage-free eggs, but since you feel guilty enough to pay 100% more that's what you will pay. The chickens are probably not much happier crammed into a barn with 10000 other chickens, but the farmer, corporation, and retailer, who each receive a cut of you generosity, are.

There is a lot to think about in the original post, it seems like no issue is as simple as we wish it was. I have a comment about laborers in developing countries, because I have spent most of my adult life in one. It is really easy to make comments about how unjust a system is, which pays people so little, but just like all the other issues that were raised, it is not as simple as it seems. First of all, there are many of us who really cannot afford to buy US made goods. I don't care what anyone says, sometimes, it's just an economic reality. At some point our ideals have to meet reality, and often, we have to compromise. Secondly, the unemployment rate in many developing countries is ludicrously high. Often, any job, is better than no job. If I pay my laundry lady $4.25 a day, that sounds like a crime, to most of you. But the lady next door pays her laundry lady less than $1.50 for working longer days and she doesn't care about her laundry lady's kids or health and doesn't bother to treat her kindly. Should I not hire a laundry lady at all, because I can't pay her a US standard of minimum wage, or am I doing what's right within this context? My laundry lady loves working for me, in no small part because I treat her as a human being ought to be treated. Is that good enough? None of these questions has a simple answer. My laundry lady makes more money, working for me, than her husband did working at a job he'd had for 20 years. He was recently fired because a fortune teller told the boss the man was untrustworthy. Go figure.

Life is not fair, but we have to make decisions based on our values and do the best we can with the information we have. You can't do a thing about what other people will do with your stuff if you Freecycle it.(We don't have Freecycle here, but I have been a member when I lived in the US) Frankly, I don't care what they do with it, as long as it isn't my problem anymore and it's not in a dumpster somewhere. Spend your energy where it can do some good and don't worry too much about the other stuff.

Sorry, but you truly can't save the world as an individual (and as I bible believer, I know it's gonna go someday anyway). Our leaders have sold us out slowly but surely over the years. ANY spending I do these days is as little as possible, and I've cut every corner I can think of. I'm within walking distance of a Walmart and a Dollar General and some thrift stores, and the evil giants certainly get my business. I buy new things seldom. Gift giving in our family is no more except for the kiddies occasionally. And $12 for a sweat shirt? Cut me a break. New ones can be had for less thn $2 on a good day in a thrift store. Guess I'm getting too old to be reading and commenting on Wise Bread. Any 50-somethings here besides me?

Nor am I saying my actions are a good model for others. I'm actually just pointing out my own weakness: I'm a lot more likely to act on what I've seen than to go out and investigate what I don't know about.

Haven't you ever wished you DIDN'T know about the consequences of some action you used to take guilt-free?

Sometimes, I do wonder if I'm contributing to a slower economy. I'm trying to shift us from buying foods that are increasing in price, to foods that tend to still be steady. I'm going to the thrift store for clothes now, where I can - the kids and I don't need brand-new, although my husband's job needs him to have fairly high quality stuff (and I will look to see if there's anything at the thrift store for him too).

Then I look at the other people in the checkout line with me. When their cart is half as full, and their bill is twice as much, I know that the economy has lots of push behind it. Sometimes I'm in awe of other people, for having really good deals and high quality foods, and sometimes I look at what we got at a particular store and I'm very aware that I'm doing stress-binge-eating again - but generally, even then, others are spending far more.

There are new stores being built, there's an area of land being fought over for perhaps a big box store - here, at least, there are many more people spending than there are people who aren't.

Hey my saturn was 13,000 NEW and I didn't even have a financing charge. Granted this was in 03, I still made sure some people in TN had some food on their plate. My car even has a sticker saying it was built in TN. it's still on to this day. I would rather my hard earned money go to the local person so they can enjoy their lifestyle (EX. local grocer , clothing store) rather then being just another layer in some guy's roll (Big Box store, China) Guess with that case it's who has the better deal.

Besides cars are a bad example. For the most part they are all big companies. Don't get that twisted with your local startup company. Imagine a locally owned coffee shop close to a starbucks. You can go to either. They both use fair trade coffee, both taste good. But if I don't go to starbucks, i'm not gonna be missed money wise or myself as a person. At the local shop however any revenue they miss of course they'll see.

Working for a local company gives you a different mindset which you can see ( unless it's a real $&!&$% to work for ) Then you can say "hey jill, what's new? How's your thesis coming along" Other then "Hello how are ya? Such and such coffee so many pumps, this temp blah blah blah)" and if you start up any talk the manager usually starts shooting dirty looks at the worker etc. Besides the local coffee shops I know have live music, Art shows, wifi (free), contribute to the local economy, and much more. I will support that before I support the same store with the same green walls everywhere I go. Why go to the mermaid if all i'm doing is making some guy in Seattle rich when I live in Philadelphia? It's proven that it's so good for the economy if anything you buy is from a 150 mile radius from your home.

While the wage rate in a factory in China may seem absurdly low, one must look at the cost of living in China. How much are groceries, rent, transportation, etc? If adjusted for these parameters, perhaps the wage, though still low, would not seem quite as inhumane as it does when one compares it to western standards.